The Book of Mormon Jesus v. The Jesus of the New Testament

Posted: November 22, 2020 in Book of Mormon, Fred Anson, Jesus Christ, Mormon Studies, Susan Grape, Theology

compiled by Fred W. Anson
The Biblical Jesus who is “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14) is now our advocate with the Father. So, unlike the Old Testament’s era of justice and retribution, (i.e. the Flood); or, the final judgment at the Second Coming. The New Testament Era that we are now in is a period of grace. It centers on Jesus who came to “give us life more abundantly,” (John 10:10) therefore, mercy is prevalent until He returns. That said, the character of Jesus in the Book of Mormon is very different. In 3 Nephi, before he left heaven (right after His ultimate act of grace and love—His death on the cross), the Book of Mormon Jesus is pouring out wrath in the Americas comparable to the Apocalypse that will occur at the end of the world (see the Book of Revelation).

To this point, please consider the following comparison of the Book of Mormon (BoM) Jesus of 3 Nephi versus the Jesus of the New Testament (NT).

BoM #1. Killed those who murdered the prophets and saints to avenge them. (3 Nephi 9:5-11)
3 Nephi 9
5
And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.

NT #1. Reserves vindication for the martyred saints until His Second Coming. (Revelation 6:9-11; 19:1-8)
Revelation 6 (KJV)
9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 19 (KJV)
1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

“Jesus Christ visits the Americas” by John Scott. Please note the hint of prior destruction in the foreground of the painting. (click to zoom)

BoM #2. Killed multitudes for doubt (3 Ne. 8:1-25) and wickedness by burning them and their cities. (3 Nephi 9:3-11)
3 Nephi 8
1
And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity—

2 And now it came to pass, if there was no mistake made by this man in the reckoning of our time, the thirty and third year had passed away;

3 And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land.

4 And there began to be great doubtings and disputations among the people, notwithstanding so many signs had been given.

5 And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

9 And the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned.

10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.

20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;

21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;

22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.

23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

25 And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible.

3 Nephi
3
Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.

NT #2. Called those who scorned the prophets, rejected Him to His face, and successfully plotted to kill Him, “hypocrites”, and held their generation responsible for the deaths of the saints. (Matthew 23:34-36)
Matthew 23 (KJV)
34
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

BoM #3. Killed multitudes around the time of his death (3 Nephi 9-12)
3 Nephi 9
1
And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land, crying:

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.

10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.

11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.

12 And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

NT #3. While dying on the cross, He forgave those who physically crucified Him. (Luke 23:33-35)
Luke 23 (KJV)
33
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

BoM #4. After he died, many were buried in the earth. (3 Nephi 9:5-8)
3 Nephi 9
5
And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

NT #4. When He died, the earth shook and many rose from the dead. (Matthew 27:50-53)
Matthew 27 (KJV)
50
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

BoM #5. When the earth stopped shaking (3 Nephi 10:9) he summarized his killing and destruction to the grieving, remorseful survivors, and then told them to repent so he could heal them. (3 Nephi 9:13)

3 Nephi 10
9
And it came to pass that thus did the three days pass away. And it was in the morning, and the darkness dispersed from off the face of the land, and the earth did cease to tremble, and the rocks did cease to rend, and the dreadful groanings did cease, and all the tumultuous noises did pass away.

3 Nephi 9:13
O all ye that are spared because ye were more righteous than they, will ye not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you?

The nutshell version of this article.

NT #5. Did not kill and destroy to bring about repentance. In fact, His disciples asked Him to destroy some who rejected Him, and Jesus told them: “the Son of man came not to destroy men’s lives, but to save them” (Luke 9:51-56)
Luke 9 (KJV)
51
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

BoM #6. Wept over them after he killed them (3 Nephi 10:4-6)
3 Nephi 10
4
O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.

5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.

NT #6. Wept over them after pronouncing judgment and allowed them to live. (Luke 19:41-44; Matthew 23:29-39)
Luke 19 (KJV)
41
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Matthew 23:29-39 (KJV)
29
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Last but not least, I recommend this video summation from Jonathan Streeter’s “Thinker of Thoughts” YouTube channel. It illustrates the above issues visually using images and words, rather than just words. It contains an emotional and visceral impact that mere words lack.

(compiled from the research of Susan Grape, who has granted this author permission to use her work in this form)

Comments
  1. Since most Christians agree that Jesus Christ is YHWH of the Old Testament. Here is what YHWH Commanded: 1 Samuel 15:1-26

    Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

    2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

    3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

    4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

    5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.

    6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.

    7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

    8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

    9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

    10 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,

    11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

    12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal.

    13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

    14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

    15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

    16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.

    17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel?

    18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

    19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

    20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.

    21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.

    22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

    24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

    25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.

    26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

    According to the Old Testament. Saul was denied anointing of King because he disobeyed God and did not slaughter all that the LORD (YHWH/Jesus Christ) commanded of him to slaughter because of their sin.

    So… yeah…

    Like

    • @Tim Berman wrote, “Since most Christians agree that Jesus Christ is YHWH of the Old Testament.”

      Actually, ALL Biblically orthodox Christians affirm and confess Jesus is revealed as Yahweh Elohim in the Bible.

      As is God the Father.

      As is God the Holy Spirit.

      They are ALL Yahweh Elohim just as the oldest Confessional Creed in the Bible, the Shema Israel asserts:

      “Hear, O Israel: The Lord, our God, is one Lord;”
      — Deuteronomy 6:4 (Joseph Smith Translation)

      Or transliterated:

      In English: “hear-you Israel Yahweh Elohim-of·us Yahweh one”

      In Hebrew: “shmo ishral ieue alei·nu ieue achd”

      And the last word “achd” (aka “echad”) means “united one”.

      (see http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm )

      As Christian Theologian, Rob Bowman, has summarized well:

      “…the doctrine [of the Trinity] is simply a systematization of six core propositions that are all based directly on the teaching of the Bible:

      1) There is one God (i.e., one proper object of religious devotion).

      2) This one God is a single divine being, called Jehovah or Yahweh in the Old Testament (the LORD).

      3) The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is God, the LORD.

      4) The Son, Jesus Christ, is God, the LORD.

      5) The Holy Spirit is God, the LORD.

      6) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each someone distinct from the other two.

      In order to defend an alternative position, you must refute at least one of these premises, or, you must show that all six of these propositions are consistent with another theological position besides the Trinity. I do not think the latter is possible, and in fact I do not know of any non-Trinitarian theology that affirms all six propositions (at least, not without some heavy equivocation). So, for all practical purposes, if you’re going to defend another view in place of the Trinity, you’ll have to refute one of the above premises.”
      (see https://beggarsbread.org/2015/09/05/how-to-defend-an-anti-trinitarian-theology/ )

      Like

      • @Tim Berman wrote, “Here is what YHWH Commanded: 1 Samuel 15:1-26 [citation redacted for the sake of brevity] According to the Old Testament. Saul was denied anointing of King because he disobeyed God and did not slaughter all that the LORD (YHWH/Jesus Christ) commanded of him to slaughter because of their sin.”

        And?

        First, Jesus Christ isn’t King Saul in the Old Testament.

        Second, in the Book of Mormon Jesus is appearing and acting in the New Testament era of grace and mercy that we are now in, not the Old Testament era of law and wrath. This was clearly stated in the article’s introduction that, appeared, you missed:

        “The Biblical Jesus who is “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14) is now our advocate with the Father. So, unlike the Old Testament’s era of justice and retribution, (i.e. the Flood); or, the final judgment at the Second Coming. The New Testament Era that we are now in is a period of grace. It centers on Jesus who came to “give us life more abundantly,” (John 10:10) therefore, mercy is prevalent until He returns. That said, the character of Jesus in the Book of Mormon is very different. In 3 Nephi, before he left heaven (right after His ultimate act of grace and love—His death on the cross), the Book of Mormon Jesus is pouring out wrath in the Americas comparable to the Apocalypse that will occur at the end of the world (see the Book of Revelation).”
        (see above article)

        Yahweh Elohim couldn’t have been clearer on this point when He sent His angelic messengers to declare this grace and mercy upon the advent of the Messiah via the incarnation:

        Luke 2 KJV
        13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:

        14 “Glory to God in the highest,
        And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!”

        And Christ Himself reasserts Him mission to SAVE not condemn when He explicitly revealed the following to Nicodemus:

        John 3 KJV
        16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

        Tim Berman, “So… yeah…”

        So yeah, if the Book of Mormon Jesus Christ WASN’T appearing in the current era – the CURRENT era of grace and mercy – rather than the Old Testament era of law and condemnation you would have a case.

        However, that’s NOT the case here, is it?

        Like

      • I am quite familiar with the Shema of the Old Testament. You misunderstood my comment and failed to respond to Jesus Christ (YHWH) commanding the slaughter of even infants suckling at their mother’s breast for the wickedness they did against Israel (1 Samuel 15). How can you Justify the comparison of Christ of the Bible vs. the Christ of the Book of Mormon and fail to understand that YHWH was quite vengeful in the commanding of the slaughter of people and animals. Total red herring logical fallacy here where you went completely over to the nature of the Trinity and failed to discuss 1 Samuel 15.

        Like

  2. Barb Griffith says:

    Tim: So, how come he didn’t keep it up when he came to Palestine during the New Testament times? The most he’s on record as doing to people then was driving out moneychangers and making a mess of their stuff. Otherwise, his body count during the New Testament included a fig tree and a herd of swine. Was he out of shape by then? Or saving his strength for the New World mop-up operations to come? Oh, and he scolded a lot of people and insulted them. Last but not least, in the New Testament he put up with being crucified, which was a lot more painful and degrading than most of us moderns realize. I suppose you’d like to discuss the command to buy a sword too.

    Like

    • I am stating that Jesus Christ/YHWH condemned people for their wickedness and commanded Saul to go and kill all – including Infants suckling at their mother’s breast. Does that not strike you odd?

      Like

      • Barb Griffith says:

        Mr. Berman: the spectacular carnage of destroying multiple cities hits its zenith not in Sodom or Gomorrah, but in 3 Nephi 9. Multiple cities are destroyed, apparently by Jesus himself (no middlemen like a divinely commissioned army) and with no Abraham to argue that the innocent in each city be spared. Isn’t the willful slaughter of someone you know to be innocent one of the utmost worst crimes in Mormonism? Why does LDS Jesus seem to have multiple personality disorder?

        If we follow God from the Old to the New Testament, there at least seems to be the continuity of an unfolding story of man’s relationship to God. But the Book of Mormon undoes all that – it’s a gore fest. The dramatic arc is blown to smithereens. LDS Jesus himself takes us back to a level of violence that makes the Old Testament look like an afternoon rainstorm.

        There are various theories as to who really wrote the Book of Mormon. Some of its features point to a very young early 19th century man, still close to adolescence: an interest in conflict and weapons, a craving for adventure, and a reticence around women (polygamy would come much later). The writers of the Old Testament were reporting warfare as they experienced it in a pre-Geneva Conventions world (see the Golden Bowl of Hasanlu as an example).

        The Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not consonant with the Jesus of the New Testament, even though they are adjacent in time. Heck, he even outdoes the violence of the Old Testament by a million miles. What explains this?

        Like

  3. @Tim Berman wrote, “I am stating that Jesus Christ/YHWH condemned people for their wickedness and commanded Saul to go and kill all – including Infants suckling at their mother’s breast. Does that not strike you odd?”

    AND

    “I am quite familiar with the Shema of the Old Testament. You misunderstood my comment and failed to respond to Jesus Christ (YHWH) commanding the slaughter of even infants suckling at their mother’s breast for the wickedness they did against Israel (1 Samuel 15). How can you Justify the comparison of Christ of the Bible vs. the Christ of the Book of Mormon and fail to understand that YHWH was quite vengeful in the commanding of the slaughter of people and animals.”

    Mr. Berman, it WAS directly addressed. That was in the Old Testament era of law and condemnation – the OLD Covenant. The Book of Mormon takes place in the current age, the era of grace and mercy – the NEW Covenant.

    This was covered in some detail in my last set of posts – why are you ignoring me.

    Tim Berman wrote, “Total red herring logical fallacy here where you went completely over to the nature of the Trinity and failed to discuss 1 Samuel 15.”

    Mr. Berman, how is directly addressing your assertion, “Since most Christians agree that Jesus Christ is YHWH of the Old Testament” a Red Herring Fallacy?

    Sir, you were the one who made the fallacious statement that I was directly addressing and correcting – a direct response to the other party’s claims is hardly a Red Herring, is it?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Now, Mr. Berman, I can already see you starting to engage in the type of unacceptable tactics that have gotten you blocked and banned from many Mormon Studies Internet discussion and debate groups in the past: Specifically, you are ignoring our responses and countering arguments and acting like you’re an impenetrable brick wall. And then there are the baseless accusations and attempts at obfuscation. Your history is well-known and the leash here is short because of that. Sir, your reputation precedes you.

      So, putting on my Administrator’s hat I would advise you to start listening and stop ignoring or you may soon find yourself banned from yet one more website.

      You get one warning, that’s it. Like so many others, my patience with you ran out a long time ago – years ago, in fact.

      Thank you.

      Like

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