Beggar's Bread

“If we’re in it for the money, we’re doing a very bad job of it”

by Jason Wallace
Introduction
Mormonism is fueled by faith-promoting stories. No one said this better than Mormon Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie, “We have in the Church an untapped, almost unknown, treasury of inspiring and faith-promoting stories. They are the best of their kind and there are thousands of them.” (“The How and Why of Faith-promoting Stories”, New Era magazine, July 1978). Unfortunately, some of them, as another Mormon Apostle said well, only provide “…a kind of theological Twinkie—spiritually empty calories?” (Jeffrey R. Holland, “A Teacher Come from God”, Spring General Conference 1998). This series exposes the following ten “Twinkies”…

10 Myths That Mormonism Tells About Biblical Christianity

1. Biblical Christianity apostatized.
2. The Bible has been corrupted.
3. Biblical Christians believe in cheap grace.
4. Biblical Christians believe Christ prayed to Himself.
5. The Biblical Christian God is a monster who sends good people to hell just because they never had a chance to hear the gospel.
6. Biblical Christians worship the cross and the Bible.
7. Biblical Christians have no priesthood.
8. Biblical Christian Pastors and Apologists practice Priestcraft – they’re only in it for the money.
9. Biblical Christians hate Mormons.
10. Biblical Christianity is divided into 10,000+ sects, all believing in different paths to salvation.

… and replaces them with nourishing truth. Let’s talk about the one that’s bolded, shall we?

The Myth
“Biblical Christian Pastors and Apologists practice Priestcraft – they’re only in it for the money.”

I am a full-time Presbyterian Pastor serving in Utah whose calling, among many other things, includes producing religious studies videos. Last month, I received the following comment on one of our church’s YouTube videos, “When you see a pastor driving a Mercedes or BMW, living in a big house, and making 100’s of thousands of dollars a year, you know something is wrong with that church.” I responded that my car for the previous 14 years was a Hyundai Accent Hatchback with manual transmission and no air conditioning; my 63-year-old home is one of the least expensive in the Salt Lake Valley, and I’m not making nearly as much now as I was 25 years ago at a job that required a lot less work. None of this mattered to the man. No matter how little I was actually paid, he said I was guilty of “priestcraft.” Protestant pastors may no longer be portrayed as one of the “hirelings of Satan” in your temples,¹ but I’ve lost count of how many times LDS have told me that I’m in ministry for the money.

Why It’s a Myth
There’s a “Catch-22” in answering such claims. If you live comfortably, you supposedly prove the case, but if you’re struggling financially, then that’s supposed to mean God isn’t blessing you since you compare poorly to the LDS bishops who are successful in business and are “clearly blessed by God.” For most, the evidence doesn’t really matter because the verdict has already been reached – – the LDS church is true, and anyone who says differently is ignorant, or evil, or both, especially Christian pastors. Despite having heard these claims so many times, I’ll present some facts in hopes that God will use them to open the eyes of some.

First, let’s consider how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints defines “priestcraft”, which is, “Men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion (2 Ne. 26:29).” (LDS Church website, Guide to the Scriptures, “Priestcraft”)

And while warnings against “priestcraft” are regularly cited from the Book of Mormon as we have just seen, the other unique Mormon scripture also has much to say about matters of ecclesiastical compensation. In fact, and to that point, the failure to pay local LDS Church clergy is even more ironic given the fact that both the Bible and unique LDS Scripture mandate that they must be paid:

“And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop.

And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church.”
(Doctrine & Covenants 48:71-73)

And elsewhere in Doctrine and Covenants, we find this mandate, “He who is appointed to administer spiritual things, the same is worthy of his hire, even as those who are appointed to a stewardship to administer in temporal things…” (D&C 70:12) which The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual expounds on:

“In addition to his many responsibilities in the Church, Joseph Smith had a family, and he could not neglect them, although his responsibility was chiefly a spiritual one. Although not completely relieved from responsibility for his temporal needs at that time, the Prophet was told by the Lord to look to the Church for temporal support.”
(Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, ‘Section 24, “Declare My Gospel As With The Voice Of a Trump”’)

Furthermore, the Bible is in complete agreement with LDS scripture on this point – clergy should be paid for their service:

“Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?

Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?

Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.”
(1 Corinthians 9:7-14 ESV)

“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.”
(1 Timothy 5:17-18 KJV)

Oh, and by the way, it has been suggested by some that the term “double honour” in that passage strongly implies, maximally, “double wages” and, minimally, “generous wages”. So, not only should a church’s paid clergy be paid, according to the Bible, they should be paid well. Yes, it also implies “special respect” but, as the Got Questions website, explains, more than fair compensation is also included in that “honor”:

“Double honor” refers not only to an abundance of respect and obedience from members of the church but also reasonable pay. The Greek word translated “double” in 1 Timothy 5:17 means “two-fold.” And the term for “honor” in the original language includes the notion of a price or compensation. In English, we also connect the word honor with the idea of recompence through the noun honorarium, “a payment for unbilled professional services.” Paul felt that dutiful and diligent shepherds of God’s flock, the church, ought to be honored in two ways: in proper esteem and fair compensation.”
(“What is the meaning of double honor in 1 Timothy 5:17?”, Got Questions website)

 And yet, given all this clear and repeated scriptural support for a fairly (perhaps even generously) paid clergy instead we get scathing denunciations of it like this on official LdS Church sources:

“The Book of Mormon warns us about a thing called Priestcraft. Priestcraft is preaching for the sake of getting money and power. The Book of Mormon also extensively describes how the priests, teachers, and even their king, labored with their own hands for their support. Accepting a paycheck for preaching is a disturbing and foreign concept to most Latter Day Saints. There are a number of problems with a paid ministry. A paid priest must answer to both his supervisors and to the local church board, and can’t risk being too unpopular. Otherwise may lose his job. He must do all this while preparing a sermon each Sunday and trying to personally tend a flock of hundreds, maybe thousands, all by himself. Things shouldn’t be done this way.”
(Answer to FAQ by “Dan” on Mormon.org an official Lds Church website that has now been archived, retrieved 2016-01-19, the typos that are in the original have been rectified in this citation)

So help us out here Latter-day Saints: Why is it “priestcraft” when non-Mormon clergy has their temporal needs cared for by their church just as the full-time leaders of the LDS Church do and just as the Bible and unique Mormon scripture commands?² And if Joseph Smith and those “appointed to administer spiritual things are worthy of their hire in the LDS Church – up to and including the now infamous (not to mention generous) “living allowance” of Mormon General Authorities – then, again, why aren’t they engaging in “priestcraft” if and when they obey the clear dictates of Mormon scripture and receive compensation from their church?

Again, and at the risk of redundancy but for the sake of clarity and emphasis, if Mormon cultural dogma on having a paid clergy is true, then exactly how isn’t the LDS Church empowering, emboldening, and enabling the “priestcraft” of its own clergy by compensating them if generous compensation of clergy is the catalyst onto the slippery slope into corruption? Is it not, in fact, just enabling Mormon clergy’s ability to engage in the “preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world” that Mormons so easily and flippantly accuse other churches of? I mean, after all, aren’t Latter-day Saint Apostles and Prophets, in fact, treated like Rock Stars or conquering Kings whenever they make a personal appearance with congregants being cued to stand for their entrance – and usually to the clergy-exalting sound of “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet” being sung or played to boot? How is all this not a fulfillment of the very warning that the Book of Mormon gives us about “priestcraft”?

The opening of Spring 2022 General Conference with the entire 21,000-person auditorium standing in unison and singing, “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet”

 How It’s a Myth
Thus as, we see, as with so many criticisms LDS offers of pastors, there’s a double standard in play here. Joseph Smith and other full-time Mormon leaders can receive financial support from the church to provide for their family as commanded in scripture but a pastor who receives financial support to provide for his is supposedly in sin. Yes, we’re constantly reminded that your bishops don’t draw a salary, but their work is part-time. Most are employed elsewhere and draw their salary there. We likewise have people who volunteer part-time for our churches without pay, but we also have pastors who work for the church full-time. Instead of comparing full-time pastors to part-time bishops, how about comparing them to your full-time seminary teachers or to the thousands of others who work for your church full-time and draw salaries? Somehow they’re not in it for the money, but pastors are?

Further, the objection is often offered that pastors make too much money, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that in 2019,³ the average pastor’s salary was only $50,400. Meanwhile, your seminary teachers in the United States are reportedly paid $40,699 to $61,746 per year,⁴ your Mission Presidents receive total compensation estimated at $110,000 a year,⁵ and according to the last available information your General Authorities earn at least $120,000.⁶

Furthermore, while most pastors must rent their residence or struggle to make mortgage payments,16th LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson, died owning not one, not two, but three Utah homes (including more than one upscale property) despite only having one employer his entire life, the LDS Church.⁷ Finally, and as a matter of fact, at the time of his death, Joseph Smith was one of the wealthiest men in Nauvoo, Illinois.⁸ So, if we’re in it for the money, we’re doing a very bad job of it compared to Latter-day Saint full-time clergy, aren’t we?

Yes, there are some local church pastors who prostitute their office in the same way that some LDS bishops do. If you believe it unfair to dismiss all your bishops based on the bad actions of a few, then you need to use the same standard in regard to Christian pastors. Stories of Benny Hinn’s mansions and Kenneth Copeland’s jets are often thrown around, but you need to recognize, they’re not mainstream Protestant ministers – they’re unaccountable, self-proclaimed modern para-church prophets who indeed are “Men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world”. In fact, it could be said they have far more in common with Joseph Smith than a local church Christian Pastor who lives, strives, and struggles shoulder to shoulder with the congregants that they shepherd and lead – and that very distinction goes to the heart of why we have pastors who are laboring in the midst of and accountable to a local congregation rather than just a bunch of lone ranger, para-church itinerate teachers and preachers flying around in private jets and staying in 5-star hotels who are accountable to no one.⁹

Why It Matters
Christianity is a religion based on a book – – black and white revelations from prophets and apostles who were not only attested by miracles but who presented a consistent gospel over the course of 1-1/2 millennia. We do not believe we can trump that testimony of God with our own experiences. He warns us, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1) That testing isn’t to be based on feelings, because He says our hearts are, “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.” (Jeremiah 17:9)

We’re instead instructed to follow the example of the Bereans who, “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11) We don’t judge the Bible by supposed prophets, but supposed prophets by the Bible, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20)

The Apostle Paul said, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16) Earlier in the same epistle, he told Timothy, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

Thus the Bible explicitly charges Pastors with studying the Scriptures and ministering them to His people with skill and precision. In order to become a pastor, I needed a college degree and three additional years of seminary education. Our Seminaries are not for high school students. They involve graduate-level studies. We learn Hebrew and Greek to better understand the Scriptures in their original languages and tell a correct translation from an incorrect one. We study textual criticism to answer claims that the Bible has been corrupted. We study theology to see how everything fits together. We study church history to see how the Bible has been interpreted and applied and how it has been challenged. We study pastoral counseling to better be able to minister God’s Word to His people. Christianity is a faith rooted in time and space with objective truth claims. Pastors are expected to be able to refute those who contradict that faith, and provide more than platitudes to, “doubt your doubts.”

The then First President and future LDS Church Prophet Thomas S. Monson’s 2005 advertisement for church-owned Beneficial Insurance. A “stealth” method of compensating Mormon leaders is to put them on the boards of church-owned companies. (click the image to watch the video)

LDS bishops don’t engage in many of these to any depth, because as the Articles of Faith state, the Bible is only believed, “as far as it is translated correctly.” On top of this, as Ezra Taft Benson said,

“The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works. . . Beware of those who would set up the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence. . .”
(Ezra Taft Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, February 26, 1980)

Since the living prophet trumps even the standard works, Bible study simply doesn’t get the same careful attention as it does from a pastor, does it?

The church that accuses me of “priestcraft” is the largest landowner in Florida, owning 2% of the state. It owns shopping malls, office towers, and residential skyscrapers.¹⁰ It has been revealed to have a single investment fund of $100 billion.¹¹ Each year, it produces enough to fully fund church operations without anyone tithing again.¹² Meanwhile, pastors can’t presume to tell people God has called them to specific tasks in the church, so they often end up doing them themselves. Many of the things you have done by professionals are done by the pastor, from plumbing repairs to mowing the church lawn.¹³

Summary and Conclusion
The reason I do this is not for the money, but because of my love for Jesus Christ and His people. I long to see LDS turned from their false prophets and embrace the Jesus of the Bible. If you believe you already are, then engage my arguments, don’t try to assign bad motives to me. It’s a lot easier to demonize someone than answer their arguments, but it’s also dishonest.

NOTES
¹ According to transcripts of the Pre-1990 Temple Endowment ceremony, it included the following scene during the Telestial World portion of the ceremony, in which non-Mormon clergy were mocked and portrayed as being money motivated:

“Telestial Kingdom
(Adam and Eve are shown full view for the first time. They are clad in animal skins which cover their bodies to their knees. The lone and dreary world is represented by desert scenery. Adam kneels at his stone altar, spreads his hands to heaven, and piously invokes the Lord.)

NARRATOR: We now go with Adam and Eve into the lone and dreary world. Brethren and sisters, this represents the Telestial kingdom, or the world in which we now live. Adam, on finding himself in the lone and dreary world, built an altar and offered prayer, and these are the words he uttered:

Lucifer in the World
ADAM: Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
(As Adam prays, Lucifer approaches from behind out of the shadows.)

LUCIFER: I hear you; what is it you want?
(Although Adam has already encountered Lucifer in the Garden of Eden, he fails to recognize him at this appearance.)

ADAM: Who are you?

LUCIFER: I am the God of this world.

ADAM: You, the God of this world?

LUCIFER: Yes, what do you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently.
(Lucifer turns his head as a sectarian minister approaches.)

The Preacher
LUCIFER: Good Morning sir!

SECTARIAN MINISTER: Good morning!
(The preacher turns and looks into the camera.)

SECTARIAN MINISTER: A fine congregation!

LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher?

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I am.

LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?

SECTARIAN MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry.

LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.
(Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.)

LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere.
(As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.)

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion.

ADAM: I was calling upon Father.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being?

ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed?

ADAM: I do not believe in any such place.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you.

LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father.
(The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne afront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him.)”

(Jonathan “Thinker of Thoughts” Streeter (transcriber), “Pre-1990 Temple Endowment”, Thoughts on Things and Stuff website, Aug 24, 2016)

² And, even more interesting, the same scriptural command to have a paid clergy in unique Mormon scripture is also true of modern Mormon Missionaries who must “pay to play” to the tune of thousands of dollars during their mission:

“And again, thus saith the Lord unto you, O ye elders of my church, who have given your names that you might know his will concerning you—

Behold, I say unto you, that it is the duty of the church to assist in supporting the families of those, and also to support the families of those who are called and must needs be sent unto the world to proclaim the gospel unto the world.

Wherefore, I, the Lord, give unto you this commandment, that ye obtain places for your families, inasmuch as your brethren are willing to open their hearts.”
(Doctrine & Covenants 75:23-25)

³ See “Occupational Employment and Wages, May 2019, 21-2011 Clergy”

⁴ See “Salary Details for a Seminary Teacher at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, Glassdoor website.

⁵ Eric Johnson, “What does “unpaid ministry” look like? A look at the compensation of Mission Presidents”, Mormon Research Ministry website.

⁶ Peggy Fletcher Stack, “How much do top Mormon leaders make? Leaked pay stubs may surprise you”, The Salt Lake Tribune, January 26, 2017.

⁷ “Thomas Monson’s Homes (Updated)” Mormon Insider website, April 18, 2013. And what’s even more interesting is that Thomas S. Monson, the same man who owned and maintained these three houses, made in this bold claim in Spring General Conference 2006:

“I answered that the Church is not wealthy but that we follow the ancient biblical principle of tithing, which principle is reemphasized in our modern scripture. I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry…”
(Thomas S. Monson, “Our Sacred Priesthood Trust”, Spring General Conference 2006)

⁸ Fred W. Anson, “If Joseph Smith Wasn’t Money Motivated Then Why Did He Die Wealthy?” Beggar’s Bread website, February 13, 2022.

⁹ And if a non-Mormon reading this thinks that any of this is exaggerated, we would refer them to Benny Hinn’s nephew, Costi’s book, “God, Greed, and the (Prosperity) Gospel: How Truth Overwhelms a Life Built on Lies” in which he not only exposes these things but provides the biblical path that has lead him to a life of humble, accountable service as the type of a local church pastor that this article reveals and describes and that the bible commands.

This is not to deny that “priestcraft” is a real thing in mainstream Christianity, it is. That said, while we readily and openly acknowledge these abuses, it’s quite another thing to paint non-Mormon clergy with such a broad brush in such a way as to claim that all of them are engaging in it when, in fact, only a few are.

¹⁰ Tony Semerad, “New database gives widest look ever at LDS Church landholdings. See what it owns and where”, Salt Lake Tribune, April 5, 2022.

¹¹ Ian Lovett and Rachael Levy, “The Mormon Church Amassed $100 Billion. It Was the Best-Kept Secret in the Investment World”, Wall Street Journal, February 8, 2020.

¹² Jana Riess, “Why I stopped tithing to the LDS Church”, Religion News Service, December 23, 2020.

¹³ And while the focus of this article is on Christian Pastors everything that I have said is even truer of Christian Apologists who don’t have a congregation to pay them a salary and must depend on the kindness of strangers to keep them afloat via donations.

To cite just one case in point, in his book “Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Critics of Mormonism” Ronald V. Huggins details how the Tanners were on the verge of bankruptcy innumerable times and were only able to stay afloat thanks to the kind generosity of friends, family, and people who they didn’t even know via timely donations and gifts. Consider this incident that took place in the early “Modern Microfilm” (it was later renamed “Utah Lighthouse Ministry” when it became a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization in the United States) days of the ministry:

“Jerald had given up being a machinist to work full time to build Modern Microfilm. But within two years, it was floundering. The books sold, but there was not enough revenue to keep everything afloat and support a family. The November 1965 issue of the Tanners’ newsletter, the Salt Lake City Messenger, announced a 10 percent discount on their books. The Tanners were candid with their readers: “We hope that by selling these books we will be able to pay off our loans, and, if it is possible, to keep our equipment. … The Lord may call us to some other work, or we may even continue Modern Microfilm Co. on a part time basis.”

They planned to continue the sale through the end of June 1966, but “things have taken a turn for the worse,” Jerald and Sandra announced in July, as they offered a 20 percent discount on everything. They made an appeal for loans to the company at 8 percent interest, suggesting thousand-dollar advances paid off over two years with monthly payments of $48.34. They insisted there was no fear of bankruptcy, but Jerald was working on a new book and was eager to finish it without seeking outside employment. A few readers responded with money, mostly family and friends, and it became a method that the Tanners used into the early 1980s until they became a non-profit organization in 1983.”
(Ronald V. Huggins, “Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Critics of Mormonism”, p. 141. Signature Books. Kindle Edition)

This is a recurring theme in the book and one which Sandra Tanner herself validated in the nearly innumerable promotional interviews that she did in the wake of the book’s release. Consider in particular “Unveiling Grace” interview #186 in which she speaks in detail about how the multiple civil lawsuits that the LDS Church initiated against her and her husband risked them keeping their family home should they lose the case or the legal fees become too exorbitant, on more than one occasion.

To cite another case, the very website that you are reading this article on, “Beggar’s Bread”, operates at a net loss each year with the Publishing Editor not asking for donations, never receiving them, and paying for all operating expenses out of his own pocket for over a decade now. So if it’s true that not only Christian Pastors are in it in for the money but Christian Apologists are as well, then we all are clearly inept at this “get rich at the expense of Mormonism” scheme that Latter-day Saints claim that we are engaged in.

About the Author Jason Wallace is the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah which is a Congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. He is also the former host of “The Ancient Paths” television program, which featured topical guests and lectures on various aspects of Mormon Studies as they relate to Jesus Christ and the Bible. Pastor Wallace is also well known for his religious studies videos and hosted debates which can be found here on The Ancient Paths YouTube channel.